Domestic Competition In Canada

Is there a market for a Canada or Canada/US league of some sort? There are people in Canada who have money to put into a franchise sporting team. If say a six or eight team semi-pro comp was started, is that feasible? The public got behind the WP with sizable crowds. Was the connection with a UK competition the main draw for many? Would anything like that number turn up for say BC vs Toronto? If teams were able to have a few import players to improve the quality, that would help. It would seem to come down to getting the investors to back the clubs. 

11 hours ago, RayCee said:

Is there a market for a Canada or Canada/US league of some sort? There are people in Canada who have money to put into a franchise sporting team. If say a six or eight team semi-pro comp was started, is that feasible? The public got behind the WP with sizable crowds. Was the connection with a UK competition the main draw for many? Would anything like that number turn up for say BC vs Toronto? If teams were able to have a few import players to improve the quality, that would help. It would seem to come down to getting the investors to back the clubs. 

 

Critics of expansion often suggest this but expansionists dismiss it. But it is a good idea to consider. Development should always start from the bottom, funding amateur teams first. Realistically they may only reach a semi pro level but what does that matter if it reflects regional player growth and a fan base? For some reason there is an urgency for teams to be at the top. This sacrafices a lot of things like player development and in Toronto Wolfpack's case, the existence of the club itself. To maintain this level of standard Toronto Wolfpack had to spend big sums of money because they had no player development structure in place. By spending at the top, your only hope is that enough money spills over and finds its way to the bottom. Until that happened there was no way Toronto could structure in a youth team and develop local players. 

Totally agree. The WP's route was to  make a successful club, not developing RL in Canada. They would have hoped for some trickle down benefit. Building up works better although without the profile of a big team can be hard to do.

I put this post up to see how Canadian RL fans on this forum are feeling. Are they thinking the journey is over or still wanting another way forward? My suspicion is despondency and resignation rather than hope. Can't blame them if that’s the case. RL is a great sport at building up your hope, then crushing it.

On 10/11/2020 at 23:33, RayCee said:

Totally agree. The WP's route was to  make a successful club, not developing RL in Canada. They would have hoped for some trickle down benefit. Building up works better although without the profile of a big team can be hard to do.

I put this post up to see how Canadian RL fans on this forum are feeling. Are they thinking the journey is over or still wanting another way forward? My suspicion is despondency and resignation rather than hope. Can't blame them if that’s the case. RL is a great sport at building up your hope, then crushing it.

There is an amateur league in Canada isn't there? That suggests the foundations for future development is set already. It does not have to end with Toronto so long as the sport doesn't overreach and take the risk of leaping from amateur to pro in the hope of attracting big markets, development is still a potential.

As for another point you make, I don't disagree with your point about high profile clubs helping with this but there did seem to be a reliance on Toronto to expand the game. The problem here is Toronto are not obliged to and may not want to expand. As the sole club they may not want to compete with other clubs in the area and may see this as beneficial to them, it is like a monopoly. It needs more direct involvement to ensure self interest doesn't limit further growth. Federations should be working with the Canadian government to fund grassroots rugby league. The hands off approach and outsourcing to Toronto Wolfpack by the RFL suggests this was not the way expansion into Canada was approached. 

20 hours ago, AWRL130 said:

There is an amateur league in Canada isn't there? That suggests the foundations for future development is set already. It does not have to end with Toronto so long as the sport doesn't overreach and take the risk of leaping from amateur to pro in the hope of attracting big markets, development is still a potential.

 

As for another point you make, I don't disagree with your point about high profile clubs helping with this but there did seem to be a reliance on Toronto to expand the game. The problem here is Toronto are not obliged to and may not want to expand. As the sole club they may not want to compete with other clubs in the area and may see this as beneficial to them, it is like a monopoly. It needs more direct involvement to ensure self interest doesn't limit further growth. Federations should be working with the Canadian government to fund grassroots rugby league. The hands off approach and outsourcing to Toronto Wolfpack by the RFL suggests this was not the way expansion into Canada was approached. 

On the first highlighted point above, yes there is but in a big country it is a challenge for fragmented pockets of RL being able to work with each other. That’s why I initially suggested the possibility of some sort of national league, albeit starting at a limited scale.

The second highlighted point is important and is blighting the game generally.

2 hours ago, RayCee said:

On the first highlighted point above, yes there is but in a big country it is a challenge for fragmented pockets of RL being able to work with each other. That’s why I initially suggested the possibility of some sort of national league, albeit starting at a limited scale.

The second highlighted point is important and is blighting the game generally.

It's neccarsary to be open minded to both parties having self interests. Not just one.

Expansion clubs maintaining a monopoly is one. Super League clubs avoiding a negative impact is another. 

This would be difficult to resolve if expansion remains a professional project and if expansion incorporates new clubs into already established league's.

In the absence of a professional club, campaigning the local government for funding might help. I don't know how much was benefitted from the Canadian government (if anything) in relation to Toronto but without it expansion will be held back. The British government may fund the RFL in the UK but it would raise concerns with taxpayers if that money funded projects abroad. I'm not certain if it influenced the recent vote, but it if it were, it would be a legitimate reason for taking a hands off approach towards expansion. 

I think the way SL handled the WP ended any real hope for the game in Canada  be it amateur or other.I can't see Ottawa or NY coming in.They are not going to lay out big money now only to be rejected down the line.

Maybe if the womens team in next years WC have a decent run, that may whip up some interest.

On 12/12/2020 at 20:00, frank said:

I think the way SL handled the WP ended any real hope for the game in Canada  be it amateur or other.I can't see Ottawa or NY coming in.They are not going to lay out big money now only to be rejected down the line.

Maybe if the womens team in next years WC have a decent run, that may whip up some interest.

The absence of comments from Canadians on the subject would confirm your sentiment.

Without TWP, RL is dead in Canada.  Any support they did have will be quickly swallowed up Union who have already made the moves.  I know the owner of the Arrows, the void left by TWP will be filled by his club.

Given the absence of any real code animosity think a semi pro league like MLR would work over here but it cannot be just Canada, we are a smallish population i.e. just over half the population of the UK. And we are too spread out - Vancouver BC to Halifax NS is 6000miles/3600 miles so we have to include the USA.  That also allows us to tap into their huge(sports) venture capitalist market. All it needs is a couple of deep pocketed rugby fanatics like Argyle and perhaps that's the way Perez should have sold him the WP venture.

It pains me to say as a proud expat but we must forget chasing RFL and SL..it's proven to be a dead end, they don't want expansion. I'd hope the Arrows, NYRL, Cleveland and yes TWP can reconstitute as the genesis of an Americas Rugby League. I've said it before put a RU game in a field next to a RL game and invite 5000 NFL/CFL fans in to watch and not only would they be sold but I bet the split at the end would be RL 3500 and RU 1500 spectators..League is that much more attractive a spectacle.

On 18/12/2020 at 07:40, RobertAM said:

Given the absence of any real code animosity think a semi pro league like MLR would work over here but it cannot be just Canada, we are a smallish population i.e. just over half the population of the UK. And we are too spread out - Vancouver BC to Halifax NS is 6000miles/3600 miles so we have to include the USA.  That also allows us to tap into their huge(sports) venture capitalist market. All it needs is a couple of deep pocketed rugby fanatics like Argyle and perhaps that's the way Perez should have sold him the WP venture.

It pains me to say as a proud expat but we must forget chasing RFL and SL..it's proven to be a dead end, they don't want expansion. I'd hope the Arrows, NYRL, Cleveland and yes TWP can reconstitute as the genesis of an Americas Rugby League. I've said it before put a RU game in a field next to a RL game and invite 5000 NFL/CFL fans in to watch and not only would they be sold but I bet the split at the end would be RL 3500 and RU 1500 spectators..League is that much more attractive a spectacle.

 

Sorry I didn’t reply sooner Robert. I haven’t been here for some time now. 

I think you make valid points. SL is a dead end in more ways than one. Doing something in Canada and the US seems the only way forward. 

Part of rugby league's problem in growing anywhere is that people involved always want the result to be professional clubs, and decisions are made to find shortest path to get there. I guess it's inevitable due to its roots as a professional offshoot of an existing game. But with TWP, the Denver England-NZ game, with other exhibitions around North America and Europe, the discussion always goes something like "hey great! people will like it!" (fine) "maybe we'll see a bunch of club spring up!" (doubtful but optimistic) "and in a few years we'll see a semi-pro league" (what the ?). 

Rugby union has been played constantly in North America since before the RFU was was formed, and it took until  2016 to make an attempt of professionalizing it. Soccer has been around almost as long and had several leagues try and fail to sustain themselves, and MLS barely survived its first years before finding its current success. It took 100 years for professional hockey to expand its way across the continent. They all have player bases of thousands. 

But rugby league thinks it can stage a couple games, start a couple clubs full of locals, and we're just a few rich guy buy-ins away from a professional league that will "take off"?

Let's look at a similar niche sport. Ontario has an Aussie rules league, founded in 1989. Supposedly it's the biggest league outside Australia, with 8 teams and sometimes a 2nd division. If it was rugby league everyone would be drooling over it, calling it "the next heartland", asking how many fans are attending and if it could go semi-pro. AFL Ontario isn't any of those things, and never will be, it's just a game that a few hundred people like to play in the park on the weekend. 

For a sport to go pro you either need the money to act successful until you are successful (Melbourne, TWP at first, NHL expansion in the south, NFL if they go to London), or an amateur critical-mass far, far larger than what rugby league has here (lacrosse, rugby union).

Interesting points you make Reaper. Perhaps RL folk think back to how sport used to establish itself.  
In about 1934, RL was introduced into France. By 1939, the game was booming there and it was a leading RL nation. Sport has changed much since then. That cannot happen today in anything like that timeframe. 
The TWP a was a very ambitious exercise that was surprising well accepted by many in Toronto, to a degree that I didn’t expect so soon. Sadly, UK SL only saw it as a way to make a quick buck, not a rare opportunity to expand the game. RL may never get an opportunity like that again.