Very, very early substitutions

Yesterday (15 Aug 2021), Luke Nelmes started the game for Oldham at|Sheffield, even though he was named on the official team sheet as sub.

Does that count in the records as a "Start" - or a "Sub" ?  I could make a case for either .......

Or do we not care any more ?   It's just an "Appearance".

Hi Griff.  Can you clarify what happened exactly please?  I note in the Match Facts in LE that Nelmes is listed as sub, as Oldham have 13 starting players named; I've seen late changes before though, so presumably if he was on the pitch at kick-off, one of the named starters was on the bench.  In which case Nelmes would be credited with a starting appearance and whoever he swapped with a sub appearance.  I can't find a report online confirming the switch, so any help appreciated.

Yes - in fact Luke Nelmes was involved in the first tackle of the game, so he was definitely on at kick-off. I believe it was Liam Bent who started on the bench.

The word was that Oldham lost a replacement but I can't confirm that.  Hard to know one way or the other unless the fourth official says.  It's his job to deal with that.

The loss of a replacement may well have been a 'penalty' for a late change - similar to what happens if you include a player in your line up who isn't named in your 21 man squad.  Thanks for the info & PM; I'll follow up on this.

2 minutes ago, Neil_Ormston said:

The loss of a replacement may well have been a 'penalty' for a late change - similar to what happens if you include a player in your line up who isn't named in your 21 man squad.  Thanks for the info & PM; I'll follow up on this.

Agree - and for what it's worth he's a starter for me.

However, I do recognise the alternative argument that, as a substitution has been used, he's come on as a sub.

The point is - we need a policy so that we can be consistent.

I went through the video this morning and Liam Bent did indeed come on as sub - first spotted about ten minutes from the end.

I've discussed with Aaron Moore, and Robert Hicks at the RFL to understand the official view here.  The change happened after team lists were submitted, therefore officially speaking Bent started, and Nelmes came on as a substitute in the first minute.  This is how this will be treated for record keeping purposes.

A bizarre situation, and no idea why Oldham would do this!  Would be interested to find out the back story (was it an error in the team submission, or did Bent tweak something in the warm-up?)

Aye ........ right.

I can see the logic in this interpretation because it matches the team sheet and they did use a sub. At least it'll stop someone searching the team sheet in 2070 and saying "Liam Bent started this game, not Luke Nelmes - why have the RKC got it wrong ?"

However, let's just be sure what we're saying here .....

OK - in this instance, the fella got on the field eventually and he did play.   But what if he hadn't ?  Does he get credited with a starting appearance without ever stepping over the touchline ?  That doesn't sit well with me.

Or would we have recorded it as "Loose forward 12 Liam Bent - not used"

It's ages since I did a late change so I had a look in the Operational Manual this morning and couldn't find the regs for team sheets but as far as I know, you can still change the team without penalty up to kick-off, provided you tell the ref, the opposition, change the declared team on Passport and print fresh copies of the team sheet off.  The last one is a bit of a barrier, especially for the away team, and I'm not sure how strictly the match commissioner would monitor it.  Maybe Oldham just decided it wasn't worth the bother and took the one replacement hit.  Only they can say.  Not that it matters anyway.