Boxing

I've always enjoyed a bit of boxing (watching not taking part!) and there seems to be some very interesting stuff coming up. 

I recently posted on the other forum about boxing on YouTube and there really is some excellent stuff out there. There is something about boxing that lends itself to great content and I would heartily recommend Boxing Legends TV as a start to pass a few days of your time. 

The most pressing event is Joshua vs Parker which looks like being a decent fight. If Joshua gets past this then there is the real prospect of a mega fight in Joshua-Wilder. This is all happening whilst the return of Tyson Fury is imminent. 

Domestically there is a fair bit to be excited about,  none more so than Bellew-Haye 2.

Thought Wilder rode his luck at times against Luis Ortiz recently.

53 minutes ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

Thought Wilder rode his luck at times against Luis Ortiz recently.

He was losing the fight (although ominously not according to the judges) according to most people. His power is the reason he'll always be dangerous. 

Personally I think Parker could present problems for AJ. I'm not as impressed by AJ as many are and he was very lucky to beat Klitschko. I think he'll have enough for Parker but Wilder could certainly catch him. 

Fury is the enigma. I never rated him one bit before the Klitschko defeat and now he's spoken about as if he would be the default top fighter if it wasn't for his time away. 

7 minutes ago, Maximus Decimus said:

He was losing the fight (although ominously not according to the judges) according to most people. His power is the reason he'll always be dangerous. 

Personally I think Parker could present problems for AJ. I'm not as impressed by AJ as many are and he was very lucky to beat Klitschko. I think he'll have enough for Parker but Wilder could certainly catch him. 

Fury is the enigma. I never rated him one bit before the Klitschko defeat and now he's spoken about as if he would be the default top fighter if it wasn't for his time away. 

I thought Wilder was lucky that when he did get caught by a great shot from Ortiz in the 7th, there wasn’t really enough time left in the round for the Cuban to take full advantage.  Another way of looking at it is that Wilder showed great heart and durability to survive - maybe though a heavier hitter than Ortiz would of taken down his man.  I’m not very impressed with Wilder as a boxer having watched a few of his fights, but he will always have a puncher’s chance against better quality opponents.

As far as Joshua-Parker goes, I would be very surprised if Hearn hasn’t manoeuvred his fighter into a contest that is in his favour.  Parker looks to me a quite smallish heavyweight and is comparable in stature to a blown up cruiserweight like David Haye.  That’s not to say he can’t beat Joshua, but there’s usually a few compromises  where often reach and power can be sacrificed in favour of mobility in my opinion.

Fury deserves respect I feel and is probably confident that he could use his gameplan that defeated Klitschko to good effect against any of the top heavyweights of the current day.  He’s not a knockout artist for sure, but he probably believes he could outbox and outwork either Wilder or Joshua in the same way he did against Klitschko.  Big questions remain as to whether Fury can ever get fighting fit again both physically and mentally.

5 minutes ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

I thought Wilder was lucky that when he did get caught by a great shot from Ortiz in the 7th, there wasn’t really enough time left in the round for the Cuban to take full advantage.  Another way of looking at it is that Wilder showed great heart and durability to survive - maybe though a heavier hitter than Ortiz would of taken down his man.  I’m not very impressed with Wilder as a boxer having watched a few of his fights, but he will always have a puncher’s chance against better quality opponents.

As far as Joshua-Parker goes, I would be very surprised if Hearn hasn’t manoeuvred his fighter into a contest that is in his favour.  Parker looks to me a quite smallish heavyweight and is comparable in stature to a blown up cruiserweight like David Haye.  That’s not to say he can’t beat Joshua, but there’s usually a few compromises  where often reach and power can be sacrificed in favour of mobility in my opinion.

Fury deserves respect I feel and is probably confident that he could use his gameplan that defeated Klitschko to good effect against any of the top heavyweights of the current day.  He’s not a knockout artist for sure, but he probably believes he could outbox and outwork either Wilder or Joshua in the same way he did against Klitschko.  Big questions remain as to whether Fury can ever get fighting fit again both physically and mentally.

Also he's messed his voice up in sparring so wouldn't be able to do his customary song after the fight.

cant stomach boxing these days, lack of characters - Tyson would have destroyed Joshua within 30 seconds in his early 20s

12 hours ago, graveyard johnny said:

cant stomach boxing these days, lack of characters - Tyson would have destroyed Joshua within 30 seconds in his early 20s

Not if you ask Tyson he wouldn't have. 

1 minute ago, Maximus Decimus said:

Not if you ask Tyson he wouldn't have. 

I am going to show off and say I tipped Fury to become world champion in 2010, I was confident it would happen.  He is seriously good and I think he suffers as people are convinced that top quality boxers have to be black Americans in slightly blurry TV coverage.

That said, if I had known his temperament back in 2010, I would have thought it unlikely.

5 hours ago, Bob8 said:

I am going to show off and say I tipped Fury to become world champion in 2010, I was confident it would happen.  He is seriously good and I think he suffers as people are convinced that top quality boxers have to be black Americans in slightly blurry TV coverage.

That said, if I had known his temperament back in 2010, I would have thought it unlikely.

I actually meant Mike! 

He's said himself that because of improvements in conditioning etc, he doesn't think it'd be so straight forward. Tyson was amazing and I used to think prison and his lifestyle was the main reason he declined but in many respects I think he was found out a bit too. 

As for your last point, I enjoy watching videos from the Mayweather gym where Roger Mayweather goes around asking numerous people in the gym hypothetical questions. They asked who the greatest white boxer ever was and you'll be amazed how many draw a blank. Surprisingly to me the name that comes up most even in the US is Calzaghe. 

7 minutes ago, Maximus Decimus said:

I actually meant Mike! 

He's said himself that because of improvements in conditioning etc, he doesn't think it'd be so straight forward. Tyson was amazing and I used to think prison and his lifestyle was the main reason he declined but in many respects I think he was found out a bit too. 

Tyson's technique declined as much as his mindset and conditioning. Watch the early days, against some very good opponents and, although he'd throw quite a few haymakers (as much for intimidation as impact, I reckon), he was also very quick and accurate when he needed to be.

Most experts see the loss of Cus d'Amato as the point when Tyson's career (and life) started to unravel.

1 hour ago, Futtocks said:

Tyson's technique declined as much as his mindset and conditioning. Watch the early days, against some very good opponents and, although he'd throw quite a few haymakers (as much for intimidation as impact, I reckon), he was also very quick and accurate when he needed to be.

Most experts see the loss of Cus d'Amato as the point when Tyson's career (and life) started to unravel.

I'm not denying the effect this had but I do think there's a bit of a myth built up around Tyson based on the way he won so many fights early on and the way his career was affected by outside factors. 

It's interesting looking back a lot of this stuff and how the heavyweight division was seen as weak during this period. He intimidated so many (including big Frank) but I do think a real quality fighter could've caused him problems even in his prime and the emergence of Holyfield, Bowe and Lewis wouldve seen him really tested. 

The emphatic nature of his loss to Holyfield when he was still only 30 suggests to me that a good fighter able to withstand his early bombs would've always had a decent chance. 

45 minutes ago, Maximus Decimus said:

I'm not denying the effect this had but I do think there's a bit of a myth built up around Tyson based on the way he won so many fights early on and the way his career was affected by outside factors. 

It's interesting looking back a lot of this stuff and how the heavyweight division was seen as weak during this period. He intimidated so many (including big Frank) but I do think a real quality fighter could've caused him problems even in his prime and the emergence of Holyfield, Bowe and Lewis wouldve seen him really tested. 

The emphatic nature of his loss to Holyfield when he was still only 30 suggests to me that a good fighter able to withstand his early bombs would've always had a decent chance. 

The famous Buster Douglas fight was not fluke from Douglas.  He did well and fought Tyson in exactly right way rather than just getting lucky.

That said, I would not write off Tyson as one of the greats.  The thirty year old Tyson would, in my mind, have been demolished easily by the twenty year old version.  For his youth and short stature, that Tyson that burst on the scene is up there with the greats.  But, the decline was terrible when he should have been approaching his peak.

1 hour ago, Maximus Decimus said:

I'm not denying the effect this had but I do think there's a bit of a myth built up around Tyson based on the way he won so many fights early on and the way his career was affected by outside factors. 

It's interesting looking back a lot of this stuff and how the heavyweight division was seen as weak during this period. He intimidated so many (including big Frank) but I do think a real quality fighter could've caused him problems even in his prime and the emergence of Holyfield, Bowe and Lewis wouldve seen him really tested. 

The emphatic nature of his loss to Holyfield when he was still only 30 suggests to me that a good fighter able to withstand his early bombs would've always had a decent chance. 

He was past his psychological and technical peak when he faced Holyfield. Evander Holyfield was a very good heavyweight and an absolute great at Cruiserweight. Tyson was small enough to have had a go at Cruiserweight, if it had been established a few years earlier, and he'd have probably wreaked absolute havoc amongst the division.

When he destroyed the reigning heavyweight division in the Eighties, he was viciously precise when the openings came. he was also patient, which is a quality he lost quite early - maybe coming to believe his own hype as the indestructible beast. By the time of his first fight against Frank Bruno, he was already becoming more of a brawler - only 4 years after his professional debut.

Sometimes the light that burns twice as bright lasts half as long. When d'Amato died, it wasn't long 'til Don King had exclusive access to the golden goose of boxing.

Here’s the pantheon of heavyweight greats according to boxing bible The Ring magazine:

https://www.ringtv.com/488242-ring-greatest-heavyweight-time/

8 minutes ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

Here’s the pantheon of heavyweight greats according to boxing bible The Ring magazine:

https://www.ringtv.com/488242-ring-greatest-heavyweight-time/

Sonny Liston being as hgh up as he is is a great thing.  His defeat by Ali was only as well remembered as it is because Liston was such a great fighter.

As for Tyson Fury, to me he is still relatively unproven. Klitschko aside, he's fought some very average fighters and not always had it easy. 

Obviously Klitschko was a remarkable victory but I'm not sure it's enough on its own to justify the way that he's seen by some as the real champion before he went off the rails. 

He fought a clever but not spectacular fight against an old Klitschko. It was a huge shock which shows how he was viewed prior to the fight. He's got a lot more proving to do. 

55 minutes ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

Here’s the pantheon of heavyweight greats according to boxing bible The Ring magazine:

https://www.ringtv.com/488242-ring-greatest-heavyweight-time/

It's worth reading the fine print of how this was collated as its not about who would beat who. Jack Johnson for instance fought 100 years ago, how much do they know about him in the ring to really judge?

Im not denying Tyson as a great but 20 year old Tyson is often the person mentioned when mentioning previous eras. He was certainly iconic but I think even with a career that wasn't interrupted like it was he would have been found out eventually. 2 fighters went the distance with him in his prime, surely it was a matter of time before someone managed to not only last but outbox him. 

19 minutes ago, Maximus Decimus said:

It's worth reading the fine print of how this was collated as its not about who would beat who. Jack Johnson for instance fought 100 years ago, how much do they know about him in the ring to really judge?

Im not denying Tyson as a great but 20 year old Tyson is often the person mentioned when mentioning previous eras. He was certainly iconic but I think even with a career that wasn't interrupted like it was he would have been found out eventually. 2 fighters went the distance with him in his prime, surely it was a matter of time before someone managed to not only last but outbox him. 

There is some decent quality footage available of Johnson, who looks like a modern heavyweight in an era where the other "heavyweights" looked more like middleweights. Also, some of Dempsey's brutal demolitions are available on YouTube. His fight against the brave but outclassed Jess Willard is horrific. They were such big news that the newsreel cameras were in attendance and archive footage is rife.

I'd have loved, if I had a time machine, to see Dempsey v Marciano with both boxers in their prime. But that would have been pretty brutal, with two fighters who absolutely refused to lose.

I'd also have like to see Muhammad Ali take up Teofilo Stevenson's challenge in 1976, because that would have been fascinating.

55 minutes ago, Maximus Decimus said:

As for Tyson Fury, to me he is still relatively unproven. Klitschko aside, he's fought some very average fighters and not always had it easy. 

Obviously Klitschko was a remarkable victory but I'm not sure it's enough on its own to justify the way that he's seen by some as the real champion before he went off the rails. 

He fought a clever but not spectacular fight against an old Klitschko. It was a huge shock which shows how he was viewed prior to the fight. He's got a lot more proving to do.

I agree with much of that.

Except, I remember in 2010/11 seeing him and telling my friends that he would be world champion.  And that was before Brits were winning everything.  He has not fulfilled the potential, becoming a Wayne Rooney rather than a Lionel Messi (when both could have been a Messi).

1 hour ago, Bob8 said:

I agree with much of that.

Except, I remember in 2010/11 seeing him and telling my friends that he would be world champion.  And that was before Brits were winning everything.  He has not fulfilled the potential, becoming a Wayne Rooney rather than a Lionel Messi (when both could have been a Messi).

That was probably the time David Price was considered the best prospect and Fury a bit of a loud mouth.  

Dillian Whyte very impressive tonight and completely outclassed Browne. Bit uncomfortable at the end and hopefully Browne is ok.

Some chance that Whyte might get a shot at Wilder in June. If Joshua gets past Parker he's unlikely to fight again until November according to Hearn so Wilder might want to stay active.

Browne made himself easy meat tonight....bizarre strategy.....the knock out was brutal, feared for the worst the way he went down and stayed down too....hope he's ok

10 hours ago, Bedford Roughyed said:

That was probably the time David Price was considered the best prospect and Fury a bit of a loud mouth.  

By some, perhaps.  But around that time, Fury was young and ahead of Price.

I'm going to see Joshua-Parker on Saturday as my first live match and I really can't wait! Although as a Yorkshireman I'm properly peeved that I've paid 40 quid for something I hope will be over in less than nine minutes!

1 hour ago, Celt said:

All this talk of Tyson, Buster Douglas etc... here is another from the era, who popped up at the 02 lastonished night.... Tim Witherspoon. And...  check out what he says wearing!!

 

do we know why?